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Author Topic: Hunters bump or Rackers bump?  (Read 8000 times)
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Tamian
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« Reply #75 on: November 03, 2003, 08:33:59 AM »

oh my!  Sj!  Do you realize that one of the major reasons I prefer to ride gaited is because I don't BOUNCE??  I'll give a donation too!!  Something I've always dreamed of - some Amish friends of mine make Vis-a-Vis.  You know, the Cinderella pumpkin coach.  They are so very beautiful, they handcraft them and send them all over the world.  Can you imagine owning one of THOSE? I designed and had my own cart built. It has interchangeable fills for horse,pony and draft and is balanced for each as you change the fills (shafts), too. It has a step in the rear so when you are training you can step on and off. It has interchangeable skis and wheels.  It is made entirely of channel iron so it will not bend and is very strong.  Yes, it is heavy - but balanced so well that a child can move it around since there is no down pressure.  Anyway, as we get into winter I'll send a pic.  When I trained QH I always trained them to drive on the ground first. And I put lots of work into groundwork.  The best horse under saddle is one who has the best groundwork first, I think.  
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Tamian
Guest
« Reply #76 on: November 03, 2003, 08:35:04 AM »

 Grin *giggling* Should I post a pic of the white towel test on Storm's harness pad?  hehehe.
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Tamian
Guest
« Reply #77 on: November 03, 2003, 05:48:41 PM »

I have to post again because I had quite an eye-opener this afternoon.  My nephew came over to ride so I decided to saddle up Storm and ride too, in the arena.  I took a calculated risk and put the rubber side reins on as well as my riding reins, and used the straight snaffle bit with no cavesson. After Storm and I rode around at a walk for a while with him figuring out where to keep his head, I unsnapped the rubber side reins and simply rode him.  I remembered someone saying that your hands don't give during a FW or RW.  Now, when you walk a trot horse, your hands give.  This is what I discovered and what Storm taught ME today.  If I hold my hands higher and together without much contact, Storm will pace.  If I take contact and keep them high, he will singlefoot or rack.  If I lower my hands down to the sides of his withers/neck area and move them with his motion he will walk at a dog walk and then trot.  BUT if I DON'T MOVE my hands while they are low like this, I take light but firm contact and allow him to move his head up and down while walking and catch himself in the mouth with a bump, as I push him into the bit, he does a FW and when sped up, a RW!!!  The missing element was the STILL hands.  You simply never ride a QH that way - you follow the mouth!  I am very interested to see if other people try this, what results they have.  I also have to tell everyone that I love Storm, he is an incredible horse who will work with me on anything I ask him, and today he was MY teacher.
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sj
Guest
« Reply #78 on: November 03, 2003, 06:50:22 PM »

CONGRATULATIONS, Tamian!!! Grin

Sorry this topic never came up sooner.  I have never ridden trotting horses so I have never moved my hands before...I didn't know to tell you this was a "difference" Embarrassed.

Where did you get elastic sidereins...did you make them or buy them?  Could you email me a pic of them? (Kuehn used vet wrap in her pacey horse video Wink)

I think this is something that could help me with Em and her canter in the roundpen/lunge.  I have a surcingle, but I don't know much about this kind of stuff so I have never really used it other than when I played around with the line driving last winter.

I ride with a halter bridle so I could use the elastic sidereins attached to the halter ring rather than the bit couldn't I Huh?.  (I DO know that you should never use side reins on the curb rings on a bit though, right Huh?...I have been told to always use them with a snaffle.

sj Smiley
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Kysa
Guest
« Reply #79 on: November 03, 2003, 07:01:35 PM »

Back in my pony training days (about 35 years ago!), I used to cut my own rubber reins from old tractor tire inner tubes.  I know lots of tires don't have inner tubes anymore, but we still have some around our farm.  You might ask at a tire shop if they have any beyond repair that you could cut up.

Anne
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sj
Guest
« Reply #80 on: November 03, 2003, 07:22:24 PM »

Tamian...one more thing I wanted to share with you.

I attended an equitation riding clinic at the Celebration this past year and one of the things I learned was that there is NO "CORRECT" hand postition for riding the gaited horse (or at least not in the TWH equitation classes).  The instructors said that you are allowed to hold your hands wherever you need to to ask for the desired gait (high or low...whatever).

I guess this is probably the main reason I couldn't get the PF we had to gait at first (he trotted with me) Huh?...I was holding my hands down low and riding him without a bit so he had no contact in his mouth and I was asking him to put his head down like I would ride a lateral TWH.  Hubby was the one that finally figured out how to get him to rack/corto because he is so sloppy with his hands and rides in a chair seat. :Smiley

I guess exactly what rider/hand position you need to use depends on what gait the horse is doing and what gait you WANT him to do. Huh?

sj Smiley

 
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Tamian
Guest
« Reply #81 on: November 03, 2003, 07:32:05 PM »

sj, I made mine out of scissors snaps and bicycle innertubes.  They work just wonderful.  Want a pair?  I'll make some and send them to you, if you wish? I can measure how much innertube and do a pic, if anyone wishes?  And a pic of them on Storm?  They do work great.  I feel like I've been handed the world on a platter discovering the missing link - still hands at a walk and a FW and a RW as you graduate speed!! NOW I'M IN BUSINESS!! (I hope). Grin
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sj
Guest
« Reply #82 on: November 03, 2003, 07:59:26 PM »

You don't have to make me any, but thanks for the offer anyway.  If you will send me pics maybe I can figure out how to make my own.  I have seen those "doughnut" reins in catalogs before, but they cost way more than bicycle innertubes :Smiley.

Another thing I want to make clear is that I DO ride that way in my curb bit too (very light contact with STILL hands), but with it, I can use very light PINKY FINGER CONTROL. Grin  I take my rein up and then use slight pinky finger squeeze/releases for a correction or a turn.  Note...I am NOT pulling on the reins...I am merely holding them with the proper amount of contact in the horses mouth.

As Em is getting more conditioned and able to hold her gait longer on her own, I have been able to ride on a relaxed rein at the rw some too.  So far this has pretty much been on "good days" and and when she and I are riding alone without distrations though Tongue.

I have played around with all this different bitting stuff the last few months and I now know that I CAN use a snaffle...and I CAN get my horses to gait in one...but they gait BETTER in a curb bit IMO.

I will start my babies in a snaffle for basic work, but when it comes time for gaiting work we will go to a short shanked 4" curb.  Maybe I will never need any longer shank on them than that???

I don't know if what I do is correct since I don't have any formal training in any discipline...but it is what has WORKED for me.  Around here we all ride our gaited horses in curb bits...so nobody passes "bit judgement" on folks here.  We just use what works Cheesy.


sj Smiley
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ZephyrsMom
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« Reply #83 on: November 04, 2003, 07:57:13 AM »

...BUT if I DON'T MOVE my hands while they are low like this, I take light but firm contact and allow him to move his head up and down while walking and catch himself in the mouth with a bump, as I push him into the bit, he does a FW and when sped up, a RW!!!  The missing element was the STILL hands.  You simply never ride a QH that way - you follow the mouth!  I am very interested to see if other people try this, what results they have...

That was a missing element for me as well.  I'm new to gaited horses, and have had 'follow the feel' drilled into me so much that when Zephyr nods to get his foxwalk I had been following his head with my hands.  But at Liz's clinic I discovered that I should keep my hands still and allow him to bump off the bit.  She said he needs that as encouragement to get his head nodding!

Back to the rackers' bump for a moment... I sent this IM to Holly a while ago but she hasn't checked them lately I guess.  Undecided  Maybe y'all can help straighten out my confusion?

--

I read the discussion on Rackers Bumps with horror... those pictures showed butts just like Zephyr's.  Yet, Liz says I actually ride him "too round" to achieve the foxtrot he's built for, so it's not like he goes around hollowed-out all the time.  How could he have one???  Here are pictures:

June 2002, right after I bought him:
http://mediaservice.photoisland.com/auction/Oct/200310301380248732158656.jpg

January 2003:
http://mediaservice.photoisland.com/auction/Oct/200310306657024864111669.jpg

August 2003:
http://mediaservice.photoisland.com/auction/Oct/200310304782719509248734.jpg

No vet (neither his own vet nor one at any of our Endurance rides) has mentioned a problem, and Liz didn't say anything either.

Help!?

Here's another picture just for fun...
http://mediaservice.photoisland.com/auction/Oct/200310306482657708719085.jpg
« Last Edit: November 04, 2003, 07:59:37 AM by Zephyr's Mom » Logged
kohaver
Guest
« Reply #84 on: November 04, 2003, 08:27:20 AM »

Hmmmm.  Maybe that is why my dressage-trained friend who rides my gelding alot is getting a trot out of him.
kevie
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sj
Guest
« Reply #85 on: November 04, 2003, 09:25:59 AM »

Kevie...yes...your friend riding Sam is the first vision that popped into my head when this "still hand" discussion started.  Not to knock her at all, she is a very good rider  Cheesy, but it did stand out to see her moving her hands with Sam's headnod.  I just didn't realize that it was a major issue before or I would have said something. Grin
I think she is even more exaggerated with it because she is afraid of the curb bit Huh?

I have to ask though...if a horse doesn't move its head at a trot...why do you have to "give and take" with your hands?

Also...if you were driving a horse would you give and take like that?  I don't recall ever seeing someone moving their hands when driving a horse. Huh?

And I really am not saying any of this to be critical of anyone...so please no one take it personal...this thread has been a learning experience for me just like everyone else.



sj Smiley

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mbmccray
Guest
« Reply #86 on: November 04, 2003, 09:55:11 AM »

I'm glad this has been enlightening for other people too and not just me.  Smiley

sj - you don't "give and take" at the trot. My guess is that she was doing it at the walk and when she asked for more speed the horse trotted. If she had been riding "correctly" at the walk, when she asked for more speed, he would have continued to shake his head and speed up to a RW because he would have been set up properly to perform that gait. I put the word correct in parentheses because as we've discussed before, the correct contact is whatever the horse needs to do what you're asking of him - it isn't the same for every horse and in every situation. I just didn't know that keeping your hands still at a walk was one of the options.  Grin It's just always been drilled into me to follow the horse's  motion , etc.

I'm really glad I asked sj about contact. What you guys have all shared has been very helpful and it's something I don't remember ever hearing before. Thank you.

Barb
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sj
Guest
« Reply #87 on: November 04, 2003, 10:07:30 AM »

Zephyr,

Alot of this is coming together in my mind since this thread was started...I have spent time really looking closely at my 5 gaited horses conformations and watching them move in the pasture.

When I can figure out how to get my thoughts into words I will give a shot trying to explain my theory/findings to you.

Zephyr looks fine to me...he looks like a GAITED horse.

Holly will be back when she can...she has just been busy. Wink

sj Smiley



ps...On trotters, do you "give and take" at a COLLECTED walk on a trotting horse?


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Tamian
Guest
« Reply #88 on: November 04, 2003, 10:10:45 AM »

sj, if you don't mind, experiment with this a little with your horse.  If you follow the mouth with light contact and squeeze your horse forward they will pick up the trot and then yes, your hands will be still, since we don't move them at the trot.  BUT - if you hold your hands still as you increase speed at the walk, you get the FW or RW.  It is that tiny little transition part!  I am not playing around with Storm in a snaffle for any reason other than sometimes it is easier for horses to make a change or have an open mind when you use a different tool.  My QH of old used to know that a tom thumb bit meant he was going to race barrels, a western curb meant western pleasure, and a snaffle meant english.  That is just my old training background cropping up.  Storm will go back to his curb bit eventually, although it is very reassuring to know that he will work for me even in his halter (which I have done).  By the way, I would recommend the use of a bit and not a halter for the rubber reins.  And along with that - either use the upper rein spot on your curb bit or try a straight snaffle.  IMO, the broken snaffle has too much flex and give in it when you use it for bumping off for the RW and it doesn't work properly because it folds and moves. And when driving - there is slight movement that we follow at the walk in the reins although it is very subtle and the reins are left loose enough to absorb most of it, and then hold still and collected in AFTER we go to trot.  It is the same as riding.  For me, the right amount of contact on Storm was to follow his mouth with my elbow movement, very light contact and when I was in the "take" or shortest contact position, to hold that and let him work off it.  It felt VERY wierd to let him bump on the bit like that, but I could almost feel him thinking, "By George, I think's she's FINALLY got it!" Grin
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Cyd
Guest
« Reply #89 on: November 04, 2003, 10:13:34 AM »

SJ - I believe you are right. The day Tamian posted the photo of her horse, I looked at all of mine, including the babies. All of them have croups that drop off. This is  desireable gaited horse conformation.

I never felt that the photo Tamian posted actually showed a hunters bump. That doesn't mean there isn't one, but to me, it's not discernable in that particular photo.

That's why I posted the picture of a definite severe hunters bump.

(Just came back to modify...I think Zephyr looks fine, too and if he had the beginnings of a hunter's bump, Liz would have told you and given you a series exercises to recondition him.)

« Last Edit: November 04, 2003, 10:17:22 AM by Cyd » Logged
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