Help! It hurts when a horse bites you!

[Drifter]

My son ran into the barn huffing and puffing and told me his horse (Dumas) just chased him off.  I was shocked as Dumas is stubborn but has never been aggressive which is why he is my son's horse.

I do not tolerate misbehavior so I went out to the pasture to see if he would treat me the same way. He came toward me looking for snacks.  I refused to give him any.  He continued toward me and I ask him to keep his distance.  He pinned his ears back when I tried turning him away.  I stepped with him to keep him from turning his hind end on me. He then charged me straight on then bit me in the back as he went by.  He bit so hard that he jerked me off my feet and I went flying to the ground.  For the record, it hurt.  Fortunately I was wearing a pretty heavy jacket and all it did was pinch me.  I am swollen and bruised but no broken skin.

I got up and went back into the barn and got my training whip and made him run in circles in the pasture for several minutes.  This did little to change his attitude.

Here is a little history as to why I think this otherwise docile horse became an angry equine.  I have been nursing an abscess on him.  I had him on Bute for a few days (he is off now) and I have also been giving him a feed supplement for hoof growth (Complete Hoof).  Today my son gave him twice the amount he should have received.  This is a lot of protein.

On top of this we moved to a new barn a week ago and there is a new horse in the pasture.  The new horse, (he belongs to another border) is the boss horse and runs Dumas to death.  This new horse is very pesky and Dumas has always been at the bottom of the food chain. He is often chased and harassed by this new horse.

One other thing, it was near feeding time.

Here are my questions:
1. What should I do next?
2. Do you think these circumstances would have provoked him to do this?
3. Now that he has done this can he be broke of it and will he be trustworthy again?

[Drifter]

I have been reading up on this and it seems that I have to correct this when it happens.  You cannot reprimand any latter than 3 seconds after the bite or intent to bite.

I will go out and work with him today.  I just wish I knew what provoked this behavior.  He is our best trail horse and a pleasure to ride.  

[holdnon]

Ouch!  Not only would that hurt, but it must have been very scary for both you and your son.  Does Dumas have a history of ulcers at all?  I'm not a vet, but I have had my share of equine ulcer problems lately and the only way I knew something was up with my horse was a sudden change in attitude.  Certainly a sickness, anti-inflamatory use, a change in diet, and the new horse harrassing him are all enough stress to cause an ulcer.  Or make one he already has worse.  My vet told me a horse can get an ulcer in as little as 2 days.  I hope it's not ulcers, but it's something to think about.  I hope things work out for you.

[Remo6293]

IF YOU CANT TELL THE OBVIOUS SIGNS OF AN AGGRESSIVE HORSE AND LET IT  THROW YOU DOWN THEN GET RID OF IT PERIOD.  I DONT CARE WHAT YOU 'THINK' HES THINKING, YOU CAN't PUT HUMAN PSYCHOLOGY INTO HORSES.  HE BELIEVES YOU ARE BELOW HIM IN THE PECKING ORDER PLAIN AND SIMPLE.

[Remo6293]

if you decide to try and fix this yourself then follow these rules while feeding....

http://youtube.com/watch?v=xfFxYgY_5g0

Some other ideas

http://youtube.com/watch?v=5x5KReoy7GU

hope you and your son stay SAFE..

[Drifter]

IF YOU CANT TELL THE OBVIOUS SIGNS OF AN AGGRESSIVE HORSE AND LET IT  THROW YOU DOWN THEN GET RID OF IT PERIOD.  I DONT CARE WHAT YOU 'THINK' HES THINKING, YOU CAN't PUT HUMAN PSYCHOLOGY INTO HORSES.  HE BELIEVES YOU ARE BELOW HIM IN THE PECKING ORDER PLAIN AND SIMPLE.

I hear you and safety does come first but he has NEVER done this before.  I saw his ears I saw his mood I just didn't think he would do anything.  He has always been respectful to me and my space in the past.  I have now been educated.  I will be prepared next time.  I have a lot of money invested in this horse and I want to try and correct his behavior.  I can't sell a horse that bites.

[Drifter]

if you decide to try and fix this yourself then follow these rules while feeding....

http://youtube.com/watch?v=xfFxYgY_5g0

Some other ideas

http://youtube.com/watch?v=5x5KReoy7GU

hope you and your son stay SAFE..

Good info.  Thanks.

[Remo6293]

sometimes horses get into a mood because of issues like you stated but it never condones what he did.  I hope this information is useful and I can find some more if you like.  

Let us know how it goes.

[Drifter]

He was perfectly normal tonight.  

I don't get it.

[Drifter]

Well,Dumas was a little cranky at first but I gave him a work out in the round pen and he was perfect.  He did not fight the halter and he made me look like I know what I am doing in the round pen.

I am afraid of him though.  I find my self feeling very nervous when I am with him in the pasture.  I hope this will pass.

He seems calmer now that I have stopped the high protein diet.  He is headed back toward the Dumas I know and love.

[Drifter]

UPDATE:

It has been quite some time since this happened.  I still own Dumas and he is one of our best horses.

Here is what I have done:
1. Recognize when Dumas gets pushy and correct him as soon as it happens.  He is the bottom horse in his social circle and just like the horses I do not let him get away with any kind of misbehavior no matter how slight.

2. I never walk out into the pasture with snacks.  I do not allow any horse in my space out in the pasture.  I am the boss

3. I did have to wait for Dumas to try and bite me again.  I was prepared for this.  This may sound cruel but when he went to bite me I cracked him accross the bridge of his nose with a stick hard and fast.  I had no idea how he would respond.  He took a step back, shook his head a little then bent down and starting eating grass.  He has never tried to bite anyone since and it has been over a year since this happened.

The biggest thing is to really watch behavior and recognize the first sign of disrespect and correct it then.  It takes very little correction and will save you from big trouble down the road.

[kychic]

Food for thought: I take it that you normally give your horse treats? I posted a reply about a year ago when a border was angry with their stable manager because they prohibited the use of treats. I told this person they shouldn't be angry because any trainer or knowledgable horseman will tell you not to give treats for the very reason that horses (dogs, too) will become aggressive if they decide they want a treat and you don't give them one. I saw a woman's breast get bitten off because her horse thought he'd reach for her shirt pocket where she normally kept his treats! I know a guy who trains police dogs and he says dogs will do the same. He also told me that training with treats only teaches the animal to do the task for the sake of the treat, not because he was commanded to do the task. The same is true for horses.

Also, do you play games with your horse? I know of a young boy who played games with his horse (they began by chasing each other in the paddock when the horse was a foal) and he got charged and critically injured.

Just remember, horses are not lap dogs, and lap dogs are often times not properly trained, anyway.

[kychic]

One more thing: being brutally honest, well, not brutal, just honest. You have a dangerous combination on your hands. You are afraid of your horse (trust me, he knows it) and you're giving him treats (adding fuel to the fire). You really need to get with a experienced horseman to give you guidance. I don't mean some yahoo that has been "cowboying" horses, I mean a true horseman that is willing to take you under his/her wing and teach you the horsemanship you need to know. You can't get it all from reading books or watching DVDs. Yes, they can help, but they won't make you an instant horseman. Please find a trusted horseman to help you. You might start by asking local veteranarians in your area who they would recommend, and go from there. You could ask the breed organization who they would recommend. I want your to enjoy your horse and have a life-long enjoyment of horses. I'd hate for you to get hurt, give up on the horse, and give up on horses all together.

[reubenT]

understand herd dynamics.


a horse automatically knows,  "don't bite herd boss, don't kick boss,  be respectfull of boss,  or yer asking for trouble."

A good wack the instant they try to bite or kick is equivalent to herd boss biting or kicking back hard when the under horse tries to challenge the pecking order.  A lot of horses will accept it and never challenge again,   a few keep checking the pecking order and you have to keep alert when handling those kind.
  Marv Walker explains the herd social system better than any trainer I've ever listened to.  (and he sells his videos cheaper than any other trainer as well,  they're homemade and some are a bit boring but I learned plenty)
   Most times it's easy enough to teach a horse I'm their herd boss in a round pen,  the whip is my teeth and heels,   and wether I actually use it or not depends on their attatude. 
  Ideally we can teach them to trust us as their herd leader to keep them safe from all danger,  look to us for protection instead of escaping from a percieved danger.
  The best way to do it, combining spook proofing with herd social system training.
I've heard of a very nervous horse being trained that way,  when they were scared of something they'd shake with fright and run for their person and try to hide behind them for comfort.